Overcoming the Struggles in the Career / Dinorah Martinez Schulte
On July 22nd, 2019 we had a cool and interesting conversation with Dinorah Martinez Schulte.Today we have a very special guest, someone that we have seen grow in their professional career and personal life through our constant contact in social media, Dinorah Martinez Schulte. She is a Mexican architect that graduated from la Universidad Iberoamericana in Mexico City with a specialization in Creative Design Code from CENTRO.
She has worked with amazing firms like arquitectura 911, Sordo Madaleno, MAD Architects in China, Rojkind Arquitectos, and 3ARCH. We contacted her because she has done many conferences which she titles “The Utopian Architect” and we wanted to know what it was all about. In her talk, she refers to the many struggles she had finding herself within the profession.
Realizing that architecture is NOT only design and construction work, but also entails other things such as marketing, editorial publishing, photography, and many more. She talks about how trying to push herself to be the best left her broken and how she realized that she could not compete with others, and she needed to slow down and take in her circumstances. She gave herself a break from work and studying for a bit, and has found herself again by doing inner work and sharing her personal experience in the design field with students.
Interview Transcript:
M: Hey Dinorah! Nice to meet you. Where are you located right now? You’re in Mexico, right?
D: Hi guys, nice to meet you too. Yes, I am located in Mexico City, but right now I’m in my holiday in Mexico, Veracruz.
M: And you have lived in China.. Australia…
D: Yes! First, I lived in Sydney, Australia for an exchange in University. I lived only 6 months there and it was an amazing experience. And then I came back to Mexico. When I finished my Bachelor in Architecture, I worked for one year and a half and then I moved to China. An internship with MAD Architects, in Beijing. I lived there and it was a really crazy and amazing experience also.
M: What would you say to an architecture student right now that would like to live abroad or study abroad? Or even take an internship abroad. Would you recommend it?
D: I really recommend it. They should do it, because for me in Mexico, they have a very different way to teach architecture. It’s very traditional because here technological tools are not the most high things in Mexico. Construction and methodology is really different. But if you travel around and if you go to other schools, you see other methodologies and you learn from your other students and workmates. When I was in China, I had work mates from UCL, Harvard, from SCI-Arc, really good universities. And for me it was an amazing experience because I learned from them. I learned different methods and different perspectives to see architecture. Also you can learn about their way of life, the lifestyle. That’s really important as an architect, because we make cities. And how are you going to live in cities if we don’t know other cities. My other advice is to travel.
M: What was the best job you’ve had? The one you think “Wow, I have learned a lot from this and I want to apply all this knowledge to my life.”
D: It’s a very interesting question but a tough one, because I have had a lot of different jobs. The most interesting one… First I worked with Michel Rodjkind. It was a very interesting experience because I did not work as an architect, I worked as a marketing director and making communications. For me it was a very difficult experience but really challenging because it was the first time I had to improve my English, to write and read letters. The digital media to make magazines and digital resources… It is difficult but it is also part of architecture.
When we’re in the Bachelor, in university, we think that as an architect we only have to construct, to build. And that’s not true. Because also media, editorial, making books, and critical thinking are part of architecture. I remember when most of my mates from university told me “You’re not doing architecture, you’re doing editorial…”
M: Oh my God, I can definitely relate to that.
D: I know! And they would ask me, “Why did you decide to do this?” I was like… Well hold on, I have a lot of relationship with architects and relationship with the projects done inside the office. But this experience made me appreciate this more. Then, the most fun and interesting was going to China and going to work with MAD Architects. More than them being famous, that’s not the important thing, but what is important is that they have a research group and for me was impressive. For me making research was very interesting and important, because you aren’t just focusing on finishing the plans and models, but also learning and improving the way of doing architecture.
I don’t believe there is a right way to do architecture, but I do believe that there is a process. As I told you, I worked with several offices like Sordo Madaleno, Rojkind, MAD, Arquitectura 911, which is an urbanism firm here in Mexico, and it’s important to say that all offices have a different way to do architecture. To me it’s amazing, and I always tell the people in my conferences: “don’t focus and be the best in your office, focus on what you are learning inside the office and what you want from the office. Is it working for you or is it not?”
Because I can see that there are a lot of people working for many, many years but they’re in their comfort zone. And they’re just working because they need money or --
M: And sometimes they’re unhappy because they don’t really like what they’re doing 100%
D: Yeah! Or maybe they don’t believe in their office. When you’re working with someone, you need to believe in them and feel identified. And know that their methodology works with you. You don’t work with an office because of the recommendation letter they will give you or because of having their name in your CV. I can tell you because I thought that at the beginning. I would apply for offices because I wanted their name in my CV; But right now after many years later, I can say that I don’t care. What I care about is that I really learn, about what I wanna do and what I don’t wanna do.
I think we also have to let everyone know that there is not a best office in the world. They think that Bjarke Ingels or Zaha Hadid are the best, but this is not true. All offices in all scales are really good.
M: Yeah… Tell me a little bit about the struggles that you had when people would tell you “You are not doing real architecture, you’re just doing editorial work or talks” What happened in your life that you said, I want to talk about my struggles and call it the Utopian Architect. Because you have conferences that you do every so often which is called “The Utopian Architect” which I think is so interesting. Tell me a little bit about that.
D: The conference is about all the many struggles that I had in my life, in many different times. Because when I was in the market that was not my only struggle, I have many. That’s why I decided to create this conference. But when I was in the marketing direction everybody told me that I was not really doing architecture. To me, personally, it was really hard because I really believed the people. I thought I wasn’t doing architecture. I would tell myself… I studied architecture and now I’m not really doing anything. I was not enjoying my work and I was counting the time, and was really stressed. After that I started working in Sordo Madaleno, and I was on the other side, because I was working with the big designers but not with big builders.
I learned that architecture is not only design but also business. Everything is not just design or creativity. Working with the clients is important and making business is important. When I worked there, I was a little bit confused because I wasn’t used to that. Then, I moved to China because I got the opportunity.
The last year was the most important because I was really confused. I came back to Sordo Madaleno but when I was in MAD, I started feeling interested in coding and programming. SO I started in CENTRO with my specialty in programming. At the same time though, I was working with the biggest firm in Mexico, and they have really big projects, so for me it was really hard. I was not focused in the office or in the specialty.
M: Yeah it happens! You end up wanting to do so many things that you end up not being focused on anything.
D: Yes, I was not focused because I was in a rush, and I wanted to do everything and wanted to do the best. I wanted to learn grasshopper and still needed money because I had to pay the career. Then I wanted to work with the best office… And it was the hardest moment in my life… I broke. Because I was not doing anything good. Everything was a big disorder. So then I quit for Sordo Madaleno. I appreciate all the things they did for me, but it was not the best option for me, to study and work at the same time. You can do it if you have a flexible model but it my case, it was not possible. After this I tried to work again because I was really confused… But I didn’t take time for myself, to think….
I was really disappointed in myself, at the fact that I wasn’t doing anything. I would tell myself that I needed to be the best, that I was wasting my time… And I started working, and I failed again. I was not focused… My midterm submission got me a really bad note… But I had not enough time to do everything. In the month of September, I decided to quit my job and to take time to take time and ask myself what I really wanted to do.
M: How did it feel going from thinking that you had to work, work, work, in order to be successful to just leave everything and know that you need time to not do anything and focus on myself and what I want?
D: It was very difficult for me, because I never had the time to ask myself things. The day I finished my Bachelor, the next day I was working with Rojkind. I was always the person that I was in a rush. But within the last year, it was a big struggle… My mom would tell me “hold on…”
M: My mom tells me that all the time! I can definitely relate to this.
D: Yeah, and I would say… My mom doesn’t know anything about architecture! How can she know?
M: Yeah, but you feel like you are running out of time. We are so young, but we feel like time is running out. Like we have to do something now… And that’s the wrong mindset to be at.
D: Yes and you know what? When I was in China, I had really competitive mates… They graduated from Harvard, UCL… So I had a lot of pressure. When I came back to Mexico I would tell myself… You’re no one. I didn’t do anything… I’m nobody in the world… I need to be this and that. I need all these titles to feel like I am someone.
Even my offices where I was working would tell me… “You are really not here…. You need to focus and take a rest.”
So I went to a psychology also. I was very unmotivated, I was not good… After all that I traveled to Europe and visited a University there. They showed me all the offices and I talked to my friends… And they weren’t really working. And I said to myself… “Maybe I’m crazy.” I’m just working because I need a recommendation letter or to fill a CV. Then, a friend of mine from Veracruz met with me, and I told him all my struggles and experiences. He asked me to do a conference about my experience because most of the people are really confused.
And I said… “I don’t know.. I’m really young… I don’t really have a name for myself… I don’t have an office…”
M: Yeah! That’s the negative self-talk that we tell ourselves. “I’m too young, or I don’t have experience.” But please continue… Haha
D: At the same time, I had a friend working with Bjarke Ingels.
M: Oh man, so you started comparing yourself with others.
D: Exactly. And I said… “I’m nothing… Why would I do this conference?” I was not really believing in myself. I wasn’t confidence. But I wrote everything in a journal. I did a timeline of my experiences as an architect and as a person… And after this, I said… “Wow, I have done a lot of things. I have many things to share with the people.”
M: Wow, that’s beautiful
D: That’s amazing you know? Maybe I was not a Director or a Project Manager of Tatiana Bilbao, but I don’t care. These little experiences that I know Michel Rojkind, that I know Sordo Madaleno… But I also know myself, and I can talk about myself! I can maybe talk about this.
In my conference I also do a self resume.. And after you know my career… I classify architecture in three words: creativity, realism, and business.
Creativity because they want to change the world. They want to be different, they want to improve their design skills. On the other hand, there is realism. To realize that there are very different perspectives. And also there are different kinds of specialties, a lot. Like the lightning team, the acoustics, and they’re all part of architecture. Then the last point is the business part. The clients… All the people making the business. So I analyzed this part and realized that everybody is a part of the architecture, at the same level. Nobody is more important than someone else.
But the main focus of the talk with the students is to tell them to relax! To relax and take their time. I see people in China dying in the office at night, people in Mexico, in Australia… With a really big pressure to be the best. And I conclude with an example from Mexico, Luis Barragan. He was an artist and a builder, an engineer. He was not an architect.
And right now, I think that the next generation needs to know a lot before going into the professional path and understand it, and then take a decision. What do you want to do in the short term and long term? And if this vision does not work, it does not matter! You can start again. It does not matter if you are not the Project Manager of Tatiana Bilbao. It doesn’t matter, don’t punish yourself like I did for many years. Enjoy what you’re doing and if you have to work with your parents, or your aunt’s office, it’s also okay. Just try to be the best you can be. Maybe you can be a big designer and you don’t have to be working with Zaha Hadid.
Right now, this personal process that I did by myself, I want to share it. Because I believe that I can help people that felt like me.
M: Thank you so much for being so open and talking about everything that you experienced… All your struggles. I love how now you can dissipate that message to others through the conference and now through this interview.
D: It’s so true, it’s not an easy thing! And I actually think that nowadays all the conferences are basically portfolios. When I go to symposiums or events, all the architects are talking about “My project is… My project is…” But nobody talks about their experiences. How did you get there? That’s why I began to do this, because I’m tired to see portfolios. I’m tired of seeing successful people talking about buildings, I want to know about you. Because we learn more when someday big architects say they were students.
M: Thank you for sharing your story, it was amazing!
